Not Just Numbers: South Carolina's Student-Centered Data Strategy

00:00:04.25  >> For the IDEA Data Center, I'm Amy Bitterman, and this is A Date with Data. Every month, I sit down with data quality influencers from around the country to share their stories about special education data and the work they do to improve outcomes for children with disabilities.

00:00:21.61  >> Welcome to A Date with Data. I'm your host, Amy Bitterman, and today we're heading to South Carolina to explore how they've been building district and state capacity to truly understand and use their data. We'r joined by Lisa McCliment, who is the Team Lead for Special Education Policy Guidance and Community Engagement, and Sandra Garner, who is the SPP/APR coordinator, both from the South Carolina Department of Education. Welcome, both of you. And to kick us off, if you could each just say a little bit about yourselves and your role at the department, and, Lisa, do you want to start us off?

00:00:58.09  >> I've been at the department for nine years now. I've done everything from program review to the indicators to the SPP/APR with Sandy. And I'm the school psychology contact person here as well, and I do a lot of policy and guidance documents.

00:01:19.03  >> Great. You have a breadth and depth of knowledge. And, Sandy, what about you?

00:01:24.68  >> Yes. I am currently the SPP/APR coordinator, but previously, I've also been here nine years, just like Lisa, and I have worked on the academic and early childhood teams. I have also done some program review, and I started out working on our MFS settlement, where I worked with districts to utilize their money to support students with disabilities.

00:01:50.70  >> Cool, so you both really come with a lot of different experiences, and that must be really beneficial for your current roles.

00:01:58.37  >> Yes, it is.

00:01:59.62  >> Absolutely.

00:02:01.09  >> Okay, so to start us off, can you talk a little bit about what motivated you in South Carolina to do this work towards building districts' capacities to better understand and really be able to use their data?

00:02:15.58  >> Sure. I can get us started. Sandy and I are both on our SSIP team, and so our SSIP goal is improving third-grade reading outcomes. And so in just working with districts, pilot schools, and then adding schools to our ESEP, we realized that our districts have availability to lots and lots of different data sources, but they really didn't know how to find their data, how to utilize their data. And so that's kind of how we got started. And then we went to IDC in Nashville last year, and we heard Delaware talk about IDC, helping them do a kind of a one-day retreat, data retreat on data and kind of put the light bulb in our head of "Hey. We need to do something about this."

00:03:15.79  >> We were so excited because we had been trying to figure out how to work with our districts, because special ed directors are constantly putting out fires. They're dealing with compliance issues and so, so many things, and it's really hard for them to sit down and really take time to look at their data. And we thought if we could schedule a time, have the help there to scaffold some of the things that they needed to do and bring their teams with them, that we could really give them a chance to look at the data on what they would do on their normal day-to-day basis.

00:03:50.85  >> Yeah. That's really smart, and that seems like an effective strategy. When they are so busy, just set aside this designated time kind of away from their offices, away from email and other distractions so they can really sit down and focus with their team. That's not something they get the chance to do very often probably.

00:04:07.97  >> No, and that's why we did it in-person, too, because it's hard to get them all together on a day. So we did it in two days, but it's really hard to get even to be in-person because they are so busy. But we all know that if you're in a long meeting online, if someone asks to talk to you, or if you get a call, you're going to take care of it if you're in a district. So we really wanted them to focus on their data and be as distraction-free as they could be.

00:04:34.52  >> Sure. Great. So can you talk about the approaches and strategies that you've been trying to help districts strengthen their capacity to understand and use data, maybe talk about those, the two-day-long gathering you had and any other strategies that you've been using?

00:04:53.46  >> And I think we kind of ...We have our data manager, Carolyn Bostic, and she has monthly data manager meetings. So she's kind of instrumental in helping us work, understand what she's been doing at the data manager meetings. We have a new system in South Carolina called GPS, and it's kind of a platform that collects ... Instead of data being in five different places, now it's all in one place. So we did an info session. We do, twice a month, an info session for directors where we just keep them up to date on what's going on. But we used one of those info sessions to show them, if they hadn't been trained on our new GPS system, here's some training. Here's how you can find your data. Here's where your data is. Take a look at your data. We wanted them to know how to use the system before they came to our conference and so they were familiar a little bit with that.And so we kind of called it our pre-conference session.

00:05:59.56  >> Then we also get their LEA determinations, which has all that data on it, too, that they don't always look at as closely as we would like them to, but they have that data, too, to look at that we give them each year. And then we actually did pull their third-grade data over the past three years for reading relating to the SSIP and then just wanting them to run through one grade level and give them that opportunity to kind of understand how to pull your data, how to chart your data, how to look at trends in your data, and then how to make decisions based on that data and hoping that they would be able to then go back and be able to do other grade-level data. So we actually gave them their data for third-grade reading outcomes for their gen ed students, for their special ed students over three years so they kind of had something to start with.

00:06:59.50  >> And then we did give them lots of time throughout that day to talk in their group, their district about what they see in their data, the trends that they're seeing, planning for. When I go back to my district, what am I going to do? How am I going to use this data to improve outcomes? And we had a lot of support from IDC.

00:07:25.83  >> Oh, my gosh, yes. I don't think we could have pulled it off without IDC support just because they really helped us to clear our focus, to break the sessions apart, help ... really gave us some really good advice from their past experience doing this with other states and then really good feedback, even at the end, because when you go through it, you're like, "Oh, maybe next time we'll do this, or we'll do that."

00:07:54.13  >> So I really don't know, without their help, and then Fred came and supported us and did our opening, was our opening speaker, and did a couple other sessions for us. So it really was a huge help to have someone else help us walk through it and kind of keep us focused.

00:08:15.69  >> That's right. And they started a couple months out. Austen Ferrier is our IDC rep for South Carolina. Mary Watson is our NCSI representative, and then Fred Edora from IDC and the Weiss Center, who used to be our state data manager on the ground.

00:08:43.03  >> Yeah. But they helped us from the very beginning. Here's the agenda. Here's the agenda they've used before. We kind of tweaked it for South Carolina. But they helped us from the very get-go with the agenda ...

00:08:58.93  >> Right.

00:08:59.11  >> ... and planning that the day. And they came to our pre-conference sessions to kind of learn our GPS data system, how we get data in South Carolina. Our districts can gather the data from us. And so we kind of blended their expertise and our experience with it with our state to help our districts kind of really understand how important that data is in decision making.

00:09:33.32  >> And I think kind of for South Carolina, we're kind of at the ... someone in the beginning stages of this really huge movement of change. All of our teachers in this state are letters-trained. We are a science of reading state. We have now implemented high-quality instructional materials for ELA and for math. We have new standards for ELA and math. So we feel like we are really on the precipice of real change, and we really wanted our special ed directors to really start to look at their data, because with all of this, and if our special ed teachers are implementing all of those things, we should be seeing huge gains in special education students' scores. And so we wanted them to kind of take a look. And part of why we kind of picked third grade was that ... because it's part of our SSIP.

00:10:27.47  >> Also because we have a huge push with MTSS for our K-two students. And so if you kind of look at third grade, you only have one or two grades below that, that you might have to worry about and say, "Oh, we're really struggling. Let's go back and look at our K-one-two kids." But also because, the next year, those third-graders are going to take fourth-grade assessment that will count as part of our state assessment. So there's a method to our madness of choosing third grade. It's not just because that's the only important grade, but we were trying to find something that might be useful and easy for them to start with. And then also, as we know, if you can build that base, that will help as the years go on to hopefully keep those scores increasing as we go up grade levels.

00:11:13.62  >> That makes a lot of sense, and not, yeah, having a strategy behind that, you know, is really rational for selecting that particular grade. And really, also I think it's really smart to start with just kind of one grade as you're kind of trying to build their capacity instead of throwing too much information and data at them at one time.

00:11:32.75  >> Yes, and we found out when we were at the conference, it was a great thing that Lisa ... because it was Lisa's idea. And she did all the hard work to get all that data together for all those. It's a lot of districts, but it was a good thing because we had a couple of districts who had firewalls, and so they had trouble getting their data. So had we not supplied that, they may not have been able to pull data, and that would have been a long day for them to not have data.

00:11:59.66  >> Yes, I know. And I think from hearing from this type of work in other states, one of the biggest challenges I think for districts sometimes can be accessing their own data and knowing where to get it, and if they do get it, but then being able to pull it out and put it into some sort of a format that is sort of understandable to people that aren't data folks, per se, so being able to kind of set them up for success in that way, that, I'm sure, was a huge advantage to doing it the way you did it.

00:12:31.19  >> And some districts, they don't even know who they need to go through to get that permission to access their data. And we had our Department of Ed main data person come and present on our new GPS system and kind of show them how it worked and walk through it again, just to kind of reinforce what we did with the pre-conference. But also we also gave districts, "This is your person in the district that runs the GPS system who you need to go" ... "If you don't have access, this is who you need to go to in your district to get access."

00:13:07.85  >> Wow.

00:13:08.10  >> ... because, yeah, they don't always know that they have access, either. It depends on the district how informed special ed directors are. So for some, GPS was like, "Oh, what?" And for others, they're like, "Yeah. We know."And some in the smaller districts, they wear so many hats besides special education that, for them, it can be really difficult, so ...

00:13:28.64  >> Yeah. That in and of itself was a huge lesson, I would imagine, for many of them. Great, so it sounds like you're doing a lot of really interesting and great work thatI'm sure will translate into better results. And can you talk a little bit about maybe some of the changes or any benefits yet you've seen so far that hopefully are a result of these efforts?

00:13:55.12  >> Sure. I think first, the first couple weeks especially, we were getting lots of emails with questions. "You said this at the conference. I just wanted to clarify," or a lot of requests for, "Can I talk to you one-on-one? I have some questions about data and questions about some things that we're doing I just wanted to run by you,"which, we hadn't really heard a whole lot before. So it was kind of ... Part of our whole day was, we're here as a state department to support you in your efforts to improve outcomes. We can't improve our state report card without our districts working to improve student outcomes in their districts. And we really put a lot of emphasis on, what do you need from us? What kind of training, what kind of additional support can we be providing? So a lot of districts, took us up on that, called and said, "Hey, can you attend a meeting at my district and with my data people and just kind of talk about a few things that you talked about at the conference?" And we've been really happy to do some of that, for sure.

00:15:14.90  >> And I think, too, for us is that sometimes we think we know what they need, but we don't always know what they need. And so it's kind of a tough balance because we are required to check on compliance, but outcomes for us are also super important. And so we want them to know that while, yes, we do have to make sure you're compliant, what we really, really want to work on with you is that outcome piece. And we want to help you. We want you to feel comfortable coming to us, asking questions, asking for support. And we weren't planning to expand our SSIP to statewide, so we really want that wanted them to kind of be where our pilot schools are with looking at data and then how to write goals that are data driven and really push students to exceed and excel and increase those outcomes. So we're kind of laying that groundwork to move out to the state with other districts to try to help them improve their outcomes and expand the reach of our SSIP. So it's been a really good benefit that way. And I think we also found some districts that we were very happily surprised how excited they were to have the time to look at it, because data is not like the big flashy thing. They all really love legal updates and stuff, which, we all kind of like that. If you're special ed, you kind of like to hear all that stuff about case law and stuff. So data is not the biggest fun thing to have to attend a session for, but it's really important to do, and so we were really excited that there were districts excited to see their data and excited to talk about it and excited to have someone else to reach out to, to help them with it. So I think that's been a huge benefit for us, opening some doors and creating relationships we may not have had before.

00:17:07.34  >> And one thing we did hear when we were at IDC in Nashville last year was some, and I can't even remember now, Sandy. Maybe you remember who said it, but one state was up there and said about their data, "This is not a number. This is a student. These are students. These are not numbers." And that was kind of so impactful.

00:17:28.72  >> We said that, when we started out, we're going to look at data, but we're not looking at data as being numbers. We're looking at data as being a percentage of our kids. These are students.

00:17:41.95  >> This number is a student.

00:17:43.52  >> Twenty-five percent met or exceeded the state standards for reading. Seventy-five percent did not. So if you have 100 kids, you only had 25 passing, meeting or exceeding. You have 75 who aren't.

00:17:57.83  >> What are you doing about the 75 who aren't? Because they're real students sitting in a desk in your district that deserve more than they're getting so that they can ...

00:18:10.95  >> Yeah, and when you look at just numbers, like Lisa said, it's kind of makes it cold, right? It makes it really far and distant.

00:18:17.63  >> Yeah.

00:18:17.86  >> But when we heard that at IDC, literally Lisa and I looked at each other like, "Oh, my gosh."

00:18:22.99  >> Yeah.

00:18:23.93  >> "Every number is a child?"

00:18:25.85  >> Mm-hmm.

00:18:26.56  >> It really, really struck us hard, and that's when we were like, "We've got to do something. We have got to get that message to our directors. We have to do something to help them look at their data and give them that time and the resources," because we ... and we said that to them: Each number is a child.

00:18:45.64  >> Mm-hmm.

00:18:45.89  >> So that was 70. That's 75 children, somebody's child, some teacher's student. And that to me, I felt like, was a really great way to get them to say and look at it less in a cold manner, more in a realistic ... how important these numbers really are, because there's a person attached to those numbers.

00:19:09.32  >> Yeah. This is their life and what their life and what their life could become or not become.

00:19:14.26  >> Right.

00:19:15.19  >> It's their future.

00:19:18.19  >> It's a very powerful message, I think. I know IDC has really been trying to emphasize that. Don't look at it as numbers. It's actual children. It's people, and kind of coming at it more from stories and sharing stories about the students and how this really all impacts them and really means something.

00:19:36.50  >> And I think when you're in education, that's ... You get into it because you want to make a difference, right?

00:19:42.47  >> You want to impact the future. You want to impact a child or children. And so that to us is like ... But you get so wrapped up in everything, so you kind of ... It was just our way to ...

00:19:52.22  >> Forget.

00:19:52.37  >> ... kind of like ... Yes.

00:19:53.95  >> And you want to bring it back down. Bring it down. These are children.

00:19:57.98  >> Yeah.

00:19:58.83  >> So I think you had to kind of bring that focus back to them because not just to them, but for us, too. Like I said, we, Lisa and I both, that struck us really hard at that IDC conference, and so we figured it would probably strike a chord similar for our SPED directors.

00:20:16.95  >> Yeah, and I think we're trying to ... and all the data, districts have to report so much data to us, and it's that they do just look at it as, "Oh, it's data the State Department needs. Just collect it and send it off and check off the box." But I think we're trying to look at everything, all our data, in a way that, Indicator 11, so your district was over the timeline for maybe 100 students. Well, 100 students were possibly losing time in intervention and help that they could be getting because we're late, not just, "Here's our percentages. Here's our numbers."

00:21:02.53  >> Yeah.

00:21:02.67  >> So we're trying to wrap that around all the data that we use and relate it to how it relates to students.

00:21:10.43  >> Sure. Yeah. And that's a great tip for other states that might be wanting to engage in or have been doing similar work, is that idea of reinforcing it's not just numbers.

00:21:22.12  >> Okay.

00:21:22.21  >> These are actual students behind them. Are there other kind of lessons learned or advice that you have after starting this work that you might share with other states?

00:21:33.04  >> Well, I'll say that when we had our conference with our SPED directors, it's a large group, and I'm sure other states have ... We have 82 districts. Other states are probably like, "Well, that's nothing." But we found that we probably would have broke that up even smaller into smaller groups, because the larger the group, the more apt that people might drift off course.

00:21:57.96  >> And we did have some districts that didn't really engage in it, and that was disappointing but not surprising because it's nearly impossible to get 100 percent of people engaged. But if we had smaller groups, maybe we could have tailored it a little more to them but also maybe made sure everybody stayed engaged. And then maybe from there we could have ... or if we did the big conference, we could have then broke it down into smaller groups later. So I think just trying to keep the follow-up going and trying to make sure the groups are maybe a little smaller so we'd be able to keep everybody engaged or to maybe be more engaged in particular with districts who wanted that.

00:22:39.98  >> And we did send out a survey and get feedback, and we did get a lot of positive feedback. And we're always getting that feedback that is like ... No, I wouldn't say "negative," but ...

00:22:55.30  >> "It's boring," or ...

00:22:57.11  >> We can never make some of our districts happy.

00:22:58.65  >> Right. You're not going to make everyone happy all the time.

00:23:01.97  >> Don't get discouraged by that. You can't please everybody.

00:23:04.34  >> Yeah. Don't get discouraged, because we kept this mindset that if we change three districts with this data conference, then we've made a difference ...

00:23:18.26  >> No matter how small ...

00:23:20.02  >> Yep.

00:23:20.68  >> Yes, we'd love all 82 districts to jump on board and start really planning and looking at their data. But we're, like, even if it's one, even if it's two.  But it's been more than I figured it would be. But we've gotten a lot of response and seen a lot of change and at least probably 10 to 15 of our districts that have reached out for more information and have gotten more data follow-up from Carolyn, our data manager. And so they've asked for follow-up in her monthly data manager meetings, and she's kind of addressed some of that in her monthly meetings. So we're trying not to say it was one and done, butCarol is reminding districts in her monthly data manager meetings about the conference, about the data and just continuing to reiterate some of those same things we did at the conference.

00:24:19.46  >> And I think, too, we're hoping that those districts that really were excited about it and are really into this data diving now and doing stuff with the data, that we'll be able to use them as models in that ... You know how it is. It's, like, you're either going to get on the train, or the train is going to leave you behind, hoping that by showing districts how much this has impacted them and what they've done by looking at the data that that might bring those other districts that might have been like, "This is boring. I don't really need to look at this," that they'll do it, too, because in all honesty, it's not like we have a handful of districts that are killing it out there with their scores. They're not, and so every district needs to look at their data. Every district needs to look at their reading data especially. And so we're just hoping that that will kind of create a trend maybe or, "Hey. I don't want to be left behind. What are you guys doing, and how did you get your data team together?" Or, "What have you done?" So we’re just kind of hoping that it'll snowball a little. And we have some really fabulous districts that are working on it and would be glad to help us kind of spread that message out or be a model for us for future data meetings, data conferences.

00:25:37.29  >> Yeah. I'm sure hearing from other districts how this has worked for them can be maybe even more impactful sometimes than hearing from the state just say, "This is something that we think would be good for you to do."

00:25:49.12  >> It is. I think that's the other piece, is that in maybe our next conference, since we did our original, that we do bring in districts, because it is impactful, because we can say all we want, but they're like, "You're not in a district," But if you are rural district and there's a rural district that gets up and says, "Hey, we did this," or if you're a large district and other large districts up there, you can kind of say, "Oh, okay. Well, they're doing it, so we're" ...

00:26:18.15  >> Yeah, too, maybe, yeah.

00:26:21.71  >> That was the part that was helpful from IDC, because Fred presented different sessions throughout the day, and it wasn't us as a State Department giving out, because sometimes it just is more impactful when it is not directly us.

00:26:37.72  >> Yeah. Yeah, sure.

00:26:39.15  >> And they don't get to see national TA providers or experts that often.

00:26:42.99  >> Yeah.

00:26:43.17  >> We do. We're so lucky. And I'm always like, "Gosh, anytime we can bring someone else in," because they do want to know what's happening nationally, but they really don't know because they don't have the ability to do what we're able to do.

00:26:56.91  >> Sure.

00:26:57.05  >> So I think that was a big plus for us, and I would say anybody who wants to do their conferences to bring other people in to do the speaking if you can or most of it, so that they get a view outside of their state and get to see what other places are doing or what national TA experts are saying, and I think that's really impactful, too.

00:27:21.58  >> Yeah, and IDC would be happy to do that for other states, so encourage ...

00:27:25.66  >> We can always count on you guys.

00:27:27.67  >> Oh, good to hear it.

00:27:29.89  >> Well, I think that wraps up today's episode. Thank you both so much for the time and for sharing your story, not only about what you're doing but really why it matters and how it's making a difference. So thank you both. Really appreciate the time.

00:27:47.94  >> A Date with Data is produced by the IDEA Data Center, which is funded by the US Department of Education. Have a story about special education data. Do you have some data that you'd like to share? We'd love to hear from you. Reach out to us at IDEAdata@westat.com. To learn more about our center and our work, visit us at IDEAData.org